I would like more transparency between developers and the users.
I gave up on TP and never donated for 2 reasons.
There was a glitch of the frontpage news when retrieved from forum topics... and the bug stood there for months.
I search the forum for a fix and i got the 2nd reason for giving up.... "it will be ready when it's ready"
Even if I understand that the software is free and people work on it as a hobby, I find myself answers like that pure arrogance and, even if I work for years in freeware projects (lately because of private and severe personal problems I am away but hoping to come back soon) and i understand that demands from users are quite pushy most of the times... I don't think that people that work on a project do it with a gun in the head... they do it because they want to and they practice, develop and learn to develop their own skills... so...
What is needed to get TP better?
1. A bit more transparency so people know about the stage of development and when some annoying bugs will be fixed.
2. to say something like "will be ready when it is" better say nothing... people know who the developers are from the forum "titles" and it's not a answer like that, that will make someone look "brighter.
best regards,
Rockas
Rockas, as you already stated its a project done on our spare-time, and there is no denial that things often take a long time to finish. TP is not made for profit, neither as something that could be transferred as such, but as you say: a chance to make a tool we can use ourselves, free to use and made by someone in same situation as you.
The team says "its ready when its ready" because I said they should say it. Do you think its more fair that I promise a version on xx date, then have to take that back due to unforeseen work? I happen to think its more honest to NOT promise dates, and rather work on it and keep the good drive, even it sometimes takes a while to get there.
So this is really a topic on brainstorming ideas to improve TP, ways to expand in TP modules mostly I reckon..not dwell on development cycles, because thats something that never going to be like you want it, theres just not any point in discussing that.
If you or others in this topic, cannot use TP because of these things, then too bad...but TBH there are more portal scripts to try out if you are not satisfied with current situation.
Yes I completely understand your point and I tried several portal systems until I found one that suits my needs.
What i stated was exactly just an opinion about what you can do to improve, and my statement was not in the direction of promising dates but make the development more "transparent". An answer like "it will be done when it's done" transmits just a wrong idea to the users of arrogance and that was what I meant.
The case I stated was something easy to fix, for any PHP expert, ofc, not my case, and i state it here just as example.
You are developing a portal system, doesn't matter if its tiny or biggy a portal lives of news. If you used the news from boards feature, the title wouldn't appear correctly or not even appear at all, i don't quite remember exactly. Now... the question is... how I am suppose to work with something that is so easy to fix and still, 3 months later isn't? I am sorry to say but i found it almost disrespectful.
So yes... i changed to a system developed by a previous member of this "house" and yes I had problems too but they were fixed and I supported the application as I should (and mean with money, ofc) the same way i try to support all the freeware software i use, IF i can use it.
Please don't take me wrong... i am trying to be constructive here... the best TP becomes, the best will become all the other systems that somehow "compete" over the same users.
I quit TP for something, in my personal opinion, that was a big glitch that wasn't solved for 3 months and i wonder if it is by now, because, again in my opinion, a portal with news working fine is no portal.
So before thinking on new features, a good way of improving this great portal system, is to clean it from all the simple but annoying bugs... the rest are whistle and bells that most of the times can be done as blocks or scripts developed by others and if really useful, go on adding them slowly so bugs don't go on spread around.
Best Regards,
Rockas
1. We dont compete against ANY other software, we do this on our own terms, for the fun of it, not to be better, or best, or even the only one to use, the internet is great that way, we can choose to do and use what ever suits us the best.
2. You keep on telling us you pay for free softwares if you can use them, fine, im glad you see it that way, but again, Bloc nor we do this for money at all, the people that donate to this site so it on their own terms and because they find TP to be what they love and want to use just as you for your software.
3. Formet team members portal system, must be Fels portal you use, and im glad you find her portal best for you and your needs, just hope she continue her great work she does with her portal so it doesent end up like her blog for SMF.
4. Your notes are taken, but will be rejected for sure as we dont do things that way, we create, we build, we laugh, we have fun, we are a great team that support and give all we can, but on our own time on our own basis, not because we have to, but because we want to, and thats the only promisse anyone here can and will be giving anyone that uses our portal
I said "compete" not compete... the commas have a meaning. No one in the "freeware" world competes unless for the fun, ofc.
I don't care how Fel's blog system ended... i don't even know it... what i care is that the news work ;-)
Again... My opinion was asked... i gave it and i repeat... some bugs, when detected must be corrected... that is what i would like to see in TP.
If my notes are not taken... i respect and rest my case.
best regards,
Rockas
Quote from: Rockas on April 04, 2009, 10:00:11 PM
I said "compete" not compete... the commas have a meaning. No one in the "freeware" world competes unless for the fun, ofc.
I don't care how Fel's blog system ended... i don't even know it... what i care is that the news work ;-)
Again... My opinion was asked... i gave it and i repeat... some bugs, when detected must be corrected... that is what i would like to see in TP.
If my notes are not taken... i respect and rest my case.
best regards,
Rockas
Your opinion wasn't asked on the process. Your opinion was asked on what features you'd like to see in TP. Your stance on fixing bugs might be true if this was not a beta product. This means that features are constantly going in and out of the product. How can you fix all the bugs until you decide the features are frozen? More often than not, a new feature conflicts and causes bugs, or creates its own new bugs. You should also realize that beta releases often come months apart. Looking back at your posts it is clear that you haven't provided any help on your questions either. How can we help if you don't help us by giving us the info we ask for, or do a little trouble shooting on your own?
Now, lets please keep this on topic. Expect any further posts off topic to be deleted from this topic.
Easy my friend... the problem I found was already reported and you know it was because you replied to it and you can't deny that people waited more than 3 months for that quick fix.
i know it's beta... but an easy fix is an easy fix or a workaround would be welcome too but no... the answer was... it will be fixed on next beta... that came 5 months after... it is not reasonable.
The thread title is... "What do you want to see in TP?" ... my answer was not off topic... but... do as you wish.
edit.
the problem was already reported and... guess?... i used search ;-)
It would be nice if some of the current bug issue were fixed instead of attempting to venture out in other directions. I'm currently redoing two sites because of bug issues that take my members to the forum instead of the portal home page - doesn't matter if they were hitting enter in the shout box - they were taken to the forum. Sometimes if they hit "enter" to send a mail, back to the forum. It doesn't make sense to create something new when something currently available doesn't work properly. We've now started to work away from Tiny Portal and with another stand alone CMS that will not have these same issues. This was after asking for help.. after applying "bug fixes" and still encountering the same problem.
I've now gone back through some of the posts and I guess my posts stands to be deleted but I still stand by my first post. I'm not the Tech of my sites, my Husband is and He does a great job. He came here in search of help/answers to fix this issue and was told to go to SMF. Done did that and we were redirected back to here. My problem is not from a Tech stand point but that of a user who built a site with 9000 plus members and to have all the work put into the site be for naught because of a bug. For a product to continuously be in beta is a bit nonsensical and in my opinion an excuse to not fix the bugs that exist. Perhaps the direction to go in is to provide a stable release without the bugs and then concentrate on a new version that can be built upon and called "Beta".
Here is something i want to point out to everyone.
TinyPortal has experimented with various things. Trying to decide what was a good idea and what is a bad idea. It's unfair to compare TP to other portals when the only things other portals did was took what they saw worked with TP, and copied it over to their own portal. Just look at how identical they are....
Yes their portal software may be less buggy, but lacks creative fortitude. TP spends alot of time in Trail & Error. I wish you guys could see how many times Bloc has changed things under the hood to make it perform better, just to have it copied. Yes he could spend that time crushing final bugs, but what would be the point of spending all that time crushing a bug and then turn right around and rewrite the script or change the routine?
It wouldn't be a problem for those developers who copy TP, but I for one support Bloc and his creative fortitude. That's what drives him really, the chance to try out new ideas.
You also have to bare in mind that Bloc is the sole developer, he has to do everything himself. Some of us try to pitch in from time to time, but he's always looking for ways to improve how TP functions. Just the other day he said he's looking at changing the way(better) it fetches articles. So we end up getting in his way at times...
This is why it's called BETA like IchBin says, none of it's features are frozen. If the features aren't frozen, there is no point in spending alot of time fixing bugs that are hard to fix(which some are). Look at the size of TP, it's the largest SMF mod there is...
I am sorry for all of the bug issues and the long waits for fixes. I will throw out some ideas to the team to see if we can't improve on this. In the meantime, "it'll be ready when it's ready". If that answer isn't good enough for you, then try another portal.
EDIT: it's common sense not to put beta software on a live site with 9000+ members. Any losses is your own fault.
Those 9000 plus members were built from years of work with SMF and TP (0.9.8). Upgrading to the latest Beta caused more problems then it solved so it wasn't as if we woke one day with the thought of "let's screw up the site and install something unfamiliar to us". Again, the point here is to create a piece of software that is functional and can come off being BETA. Coming off beta doesn't freeze the software - to me, it makes the software more appealing in that it's stable. There is nothing to stop that software to be added to or modified in future versions. I'm not a Tech, nor is the site a gaming site. It's a site created for average users pursuing a hobby. If you want a suggestion for the future of TP I would strongly suggest someone that has some knowledge of software development cycles, usability and user experience.
In closing, I'm not going to post anymore. I get the sense in reading back through this that you want people that are going to be in agreement with you or you don't wish to hear it. We were one of the first forum based groups of our kind and many have followed our lead. To come here and attempt to offer some input on issues we have and be given the attitude I was is nonsense. You're wrong about the reference to other software. While I have no clue if they used TP as a base for their overall product and even if they did, their creativeness is what drew me to them as was their ability to seek out input from their users and provide adequate support for their product minus the attitude. Feedback should always include both positive and negative. I loved TP while we used it until this latest issue and in no way shape or form meant any disrespect to Bloc - He does an awesome job, however, I don't think that he's best served by some that choose to speak for him. The value of feedback isn't always a pat on the back, but the fact that it can help identify issues that if addressed correctly will help improve the product - good luck Bloc.
I echo what you said Xarcell.
No one is forcing any of the users to use ßeta software on their sites. They choose to do it on their own, why? Because they want the latest software with the most features. This bit about not fixing bugs is nonsense. They have no idea how many bugs are fixed.. the Bugs database is full of examples of bugs fixed. And I totally agree with the use of beta software on a site with 9000 plus users and then blame TP when you were the one who put the software there, not TP, shame, shame.
No we want ideas for future features of TP, not people coming here using this thread to complain about things they clearly have no idea about.
You say you come here to offer up issues. Why have you not come here before and requested support on the issues? I see your a new user so you must not have come here in the past for any support. To just jump in here and start complaining in a thread not started for that reason is called "hi-jacking" a thread.
OK, enough.
Again, this topic was not placed here to ask for complaints to be posted about how we handle problems posted by users of TinyPortal, the simple question is "What do you want to see in TP?" In other words, what features does TP not have that you would like to see. That's it. The internet is an ever changing entity and has changed over the years, even in the last year since your last post before these 3, and our goal is to keep TP up to date and able to work the way it should work now and into the future.
If you have a specific issue about something that isn't working in TP the way you think it should be working, then that issue should be posted in the Support board so that it can be addressed properly. Issues that prove to be a genuine bug are posted to the Bugtracker (http://www.tinyportal.net/index.php?action=bugtracker) where they are looked at and fixed by Bloc on a timely basis and as he finds the time to fix them. Any bugs found are fixed for the next version and if a quick fix is available (that doesn't involve the change of multiple files) then Bloc often posts the fix for the current version so that users of the current version can make the fix themselves if they choose to do so.
By occasionally checking the bugtracker, the user can be apprised of the status of all bugs. This system works well. With over 45,000 members here, Bugfixes cannot and will never be fixed for individual users and their issues. They will always be fixed for the next release. A quick check of the bugtracker right now would show you that every bug that has been reported in beta 3 up to including the date of March 16th has been fixed for the next beta.
If you are directed to SMF to get your problem solved then it's because the issue you have is not a problem caused by TP but because of the way SMF handles something. Just because they directed you back here, that doesn't mean it was a TP issue.
I will echo the words of Ichbin. Tell us what features you want to see in TP in the future. Don't tell us about the bad taste in your mouth from something that happened in the past. That does nothing to help us plan for the future.
Clovercreek, if you want to continue to bash those of us here who try to help people, then that is your prerogative. Start another topic. I looked at every post you have ever made on this forum, and the only issue I could find involved trying to find a way to keep some of your members from seeing your Forum using a particular theme, obviously an SMF issue.
From here on, keep this topic on the subject, new features you want to see in TinyPortal. If you don't have a feature request for a future version of TP, then don't post here.
'Nuff Said,
ZarPrime
"What do you want to see in TP?" You can't build anything solid without a stable foundation - Building 101. I would start there and I believe that stays on topic, hasn't bashed any poor soul here and has told me that my searching elsewhere and even buying the product was not only time well spent but money well spent. Good luck guys.
G6, I re-openend this.
Yes, its something TP has to improve on, and yes, of course its better to have a STABLE release than adding more features to it. And thats also the aim of v1.0, to be stable.
Xarcell explained it rather well I feel, sometimes its the need to improve a way something is coded, that can introduce new bugs. As TP evolved, so have I lol. This is not something I do for a living, so it tends to end last in the queue, as you all know, RL takes the lead. But I like it so much and there are many members that do too, to just let it go its own way. So things do take time, sometimes they do not, but its always with the eye to improve it.
Ok, more specific: Rockas and clovercreek(I realize she/he has deleted their account, but trust they will read this a s guest maybe) I really like to hear what bugs are vital to be fixed - so I can adress that for beta 4 which btw, isn't far away. Its been delayed due to my involvement with SMF and generally being a bit under the weather lately, but its still very much ready. So more bugfixing is just good to get in before release.
Maybe you should change the way the updates are coming.
What i mean is to have faster updates, distinguish which bugs are high priority and which are low. A sum of high priority updates and release new (beta) version.
E.G. With Beta3 we had the bug with the editor, at least for me it kept me for using beta3 and rolled back to beta2, as soon as Bloc released a new editor i installed Beta3 again. Maybe instead of just release the editor release a new Beta 3 Build XYX or even name it Beta 4.
In either way i dont mind, i think the only serious problem i had the last 2 years with TP was the editor in Beta 3. Rest came with patience.
I really like the fact that the developers are constantly around helping and not somewhere in the background.
Keep the good work up guys and gals >:D
Regardless of what anyone thinks or says, I think everyone on here does an awesome job and its good that you don't promise things by a certain date and I for one appreciate that you all work hard to get tp to work properly for us and offer great support for it as well. I have been to other sites none of which I will mention but they are offer shocking support and nothing but snide comments. I love this website and I love TP. Keep up the great work!!
@ Inny
Release of several packages will only lead to a lot more confusions for our members, atleast since TP V1 first got released, Bloc have removed and added things so we cant bearly keep up in the team as is.
The "slow" progress in our releases are just because of the big changes that has been made between v1 to beta3, and also because Bloc develop TP V2 along side since beta2 were released so we can ( and have started to Alpha test TP V2 ).
We have discussed this with in the team several times, and always came to the same conclusion that *better a slow process that we all can keep up with" then smaller update packages that only lead to confusion for our members AND us that has to support them.
As it is now, we allready support TP V098, TP V1. TP V1 beta2 and TP V1 beta3, and the changes between these version are HUGE and very hard for us to keep track on.
If we were a company, then offcourse we had to rethink all this, hire more knowlage people to handle the support, the doc writing, the modules updates, the theme updates etc, but as you all know, we are more or less only a slight more then a handfull to keep up with everything on tinyportal, that includes everything about tp.
We keep looking constantly for members that are very helpful, have the knowlage, but also that can be a family member to the rest of the team ( we are family more or less as we treat one and other like that )
So if you sum all of this up, you will see that even if we do this on our free time, for no money what so ever, we have done a LOT more for the community, our members, free themes, free software, and also all the support given, with VERY little to work with regarding time and staff.
We started small, we took small steps, and we will continue to take things small and easy, thats what we do the best, we listen to members and for that, we ask you to have patiense with how things take time to reach regarding everything.
If any one whats to be docwriters, contact any of us in the team and we will discuss it in the team board, if any one wants to translate files, feel free to contact us and we talk about it, if anyone whats to update themes we have, feel free to contact us.
We are open for all that want to help out where they can :up:
I had that in mind G6 when i added my comment about the releases, even if installation of TP is fairly straight forward (uninstall and install new version) with some versions and/or people becomes a problem because of the other mods used.
Im overall very satisfied and pleased with TP and you people, hope you dont get my latest posts in an offensive way. :-X
Not at all offencive, just tried to explain why things take time :)
Quote from: G6 on April 05, 2009, 06:53:40 PM
just tried to explain why things take time :)
arghh that reminds me of X.... grrrr :(
On a serious note im a member of TP.net for almost one year, i do understand how you work. Just found the the opportunity to express my opinions and thoughts about TP on the 2 current hot ongoing topics :P
I should stop replying now :P
my request would be:
There are many blockcodes that are submitted by users. Some users who submits them, alters every time the first post as soon as something is changed at the code. Some however don't. Sometimes a topic is 40+ pages long... and for a user who want to use the code.. it takes a lot of time to read all those posts... So is it possible to have a rule that all the changes made at the code, that it has to be put in the openingpost?
Also sometimes members make several editions of a code... Is it possible for them to open a nother topic or something, putting in there the altered code? But... explaining that the first setup (the copyright) was from someone else with a link to the original code?
I completely understand where you're coming from, MissyNL. I know it's confusing. I can explain a little bit about why things are as they are, though.
Most of the time when I write code, it's custom code for someone that has started in the Requests child forum. The first post in the topic is not code at all, but someone asking for code. Often it takes a number of posts for me to even figure out what someone wants. Right now I'm working on custom code for someone where there was a whole page of back-and-forth before I was able to write anything at all. Should I post the code in the first post of the topic? I don't think so.
Then there is the problem with the fact that people post block code snippets and then move on. We haven't seen some of the contributors for years. I am very uncomfortable with editing someone else's posts. Very uncomfortable. Personally, I don't like even tweaking someone else's code. I do it sometimes, but I don't like it.
As for a new topic for every variation and tweak, that would soon become even more confusing. We would need to create entire child forums for some of the snippets.
However, keeping all that in mind, understand that we are aware of the problem. We (and, in particular, I) have done quite a bit of work behind the scenes to try to organize things a little bit better. It's easier said than done. We have considered and discussed several ideas, but haven't come up with anything that is really workable as yet. It's a process.
It is likely that, whatever we decide upon, it will apply to code that is posted from that point on, rather than trying to go back and organize all the code that is currently available. It's simply too much work and we all have lives aside from the time we enjoy spending at TP. :)
We are going to work more with the blockcode files that you can upload. We haven't done much with them as yet, because the concept is pretty new. But I'll get around to it.
I also doubt that there will be any rule, as such, about much of anything. There will more likely be a request.
I appreciate the thoughts, though. :)
Maybe will be a good idea to create a child board with all the complete versions of the blocks. Only and only topics for the complete codes with a bulleted list and the different variations of the block.
I can take the responsibility and update that board on daily basis, if that ever happens.
QuoteMaybe will be a good idea to create a child board with all the complete versions of the blocks
I'll see you in about three years. :)
Seriously, that's what I started doing. Updating on a daily basis is the easy part. The hard part is getting it organized in the first place.
As because we talk about an indexing board mainly, you wont be able now at least to index all blocks, needless to say that a fair big amount of them isn't working now or they got updated in different topics.
I saw your idea a few topics back about creating a categorized list. If you use very general categories like Recent Topics Blocks, Warcraft Blocks and have different topics with links in them and the codes for them it should work just fine. (html permission and anchors inside topics for easy scrolling up and down please :2funny:)
Problem at this point is that you probably wont know from where to start (too many topics too many blocks) and will seem a bit chaotic. As soon as you get the rhythm it will be fine :P. Also you need to set a limit of how many pages/months/topics back you will go to start indexing.
My volunteering offer still stands if you ever want help, either way im online in TP for a fair amount of time lately and i dont see that changing till summer. (you gotta love proper scheduling O0)
QuoteAs soon as you get the rhythm it will be fine
:2funny: Been there. Tried that.
It really is too much for twenty people to do. It's not just a case of reading 40 pages of a topic. It also requires testing every code and variation of the code so that we know that it works.
Actually, I think that the only way to do it is to delete everything in the block code snippets and just start from scratch. But I don't think anyone would like that.
oke.. i completely understand you... but what if you ask the members to test? I mean... i have a few codes working, so i could tell you what codes work for me.. and that you only apply those codes who have been added by the members... after all.. you do it for the members.. why not ask something in return?
And an file upload system would be great with an rating system in it. Maybe you can have a look how SMF has arranged it. Now we even get e-mails when a mod is updated.. simply perfect!
Mostly the reason that I don't ask people to do things is that I can't count on them. Also, I'm in the midst all the time of writing custom code for people. My brain is working on writing new code rather than figuring out how to organize old code. I can stop writing new code for people, I guess.
Bloc would have to respond to the file upload system thing. That's completely out of my area.
Can you please split this topc so it keeps on track for Bloc to follow ?
I thought this was about how the TinyPortal site could be improved. If you feel it needs to be split, by all means do so, but I'm not sure where to split it.
its ok. :) this is more site improvements, doesn't fit in the other topic so much I think.